Richard Oliver

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Posts by Richard Oliver

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  207

  Honest Questions About Child Abuse

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i have two honest questions for everyone here.

  i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.

  but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.

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  Richard Oliver

  Please explain to me in the ARC transcript where the due process is? Explain where the cross-examination of witnesses is? Show me where Watchtower was able to present evidence and their own witnesses? In a court of law an expert witness' testimony can be given as much or as little weight as a jury member deems but cannot be and is not just dismissed off hand because that expert witness is paid by one side or the other, that is how expert witnesses work.
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  207

  Honest Questions About Child Abuse

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i have two honest questions for everyone here.

  i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.

  but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.

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  Richard Oliver

  Outlaw. Again you're trying to over simplify things. First of all the ARC is a group of politicians and not a court of law. There is no due process as recognized by any government. What evidence was Watchtower able to present other than one expert witnesses that the Commission dismissed off hand because her testimony did not conform to their findings. No cross-examination of any witnesses, no rules of evidence, any response given by Watchtower was immediately dismissed by the commission again because it did not conform to what they wanted.

  Second, you keep claiming that Watchtower prevents people from telling the police. Is there any actual evidence of that other than the testimony in the ARC or from other witnesses in other courts? Is there any objective evidence? The reason I say this is because even eyewitness testimony has proven to be so unreliable that even the Illinois Supreme Court has opened up the door that there has to be other evidence in a criminal trial than just an eyewitness testimony. Also, it is so hard to prove a negative especially to people on this forum that don't care what other evidence is given. There is an example that people use to prove how hard it is to prove a negative. Can you prove to me that you never read a book? No, you can't prove that ever because how can you. In similar fashion How do you want watchtower to prove that they never told people not to go to the police?
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  207

  Honest Questions About Child Abuse

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i have two honest questions for everyone here.

  i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.

  but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.

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  Richard Oliver

  Giordano. That is my point. We sometimes want the law to be cut and dry especially for such a horrific event such as child abuse, but it is not. There are a number of things that allows people to get away with it, within the confines of the law. As I stated earlier if a country has a low age of consent, there is nothing that law enforcement can do. In this case in Lousiana, there is nothing that a prosecutor or law enforcement official can do, they are obeying the legal requirements of the land in which they live. Again is it moral? No. But are they barred from doing anything more? Yes.
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  207

  Honest Questions About Child Abuse

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i have two honest questions for everyone here.

  i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.

  but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.

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  Richard Oliver

  This is why I brought this up. Do I think it is right? Absolutely not. But is it legal according to the laws in certain places in the USA and in other countries? Yes. Again there are countries that are so heavily religious that the privilege laws are so iron clad that there is very little way around it. Not saying that divorce is anything close to child abuse, but still in the Philipines there is no mechanism for divorce. In Israel a man can prevent the divorce unilaterally if he so chooses. I am just highlighting that there are places where religion and the sanctity of religion is almost impossible to get around.
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  207

  Honest Questions About Child Abuse

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i have two honest questions for everyone here.

  i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.

  but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.

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  Richard Oliver

  Again outlaw and sparowdown. you try to over simplify things. lets again take the state of Louisiana. No matter what watchtower says as to what elders are, the definition of confession and clergy is defined by statute. No matter what watchtower says the law is the law.

  *728 (15) “Mandatory reporter” is any of the following individuals....:

  * * *

  (c) “Member of the clergy” is any priest, rabbi, duly ordained clerical deacon or minister, Christian Science practitioner, or other similarly situated functionary of a religious organization, except that he is not required to report a confidential communication, as defined in Code of Evidence Article 511, from a person to a member of the clergy who, in the course of the discipline or practice of that church,**6 denomination, or organization, is authorized or accustomed to hearing confidential communications, and under the discipline or tenets of the church, denomination, or organization has a duty to keep such communications confidential. In that instance, he shall encourage that person to report the allegations to the appropriate authorities in accordance with Article 610.

  Louisiana Code of Evidence article 511, entitled communications to clergymen, which is referenced in the foregoing Children's Code definitions provision, provides:

  A. Definitions. As used in this Article:(1) A “clergyman” is a minister, priest, rabbi, Christian Science practitioner, or other similar functionary of a religious organization, or an individual reasonably believed so to be by the person consulting him.(2) A communication is “confidential” if it is made privately and not intended for further disclosure except to other persons present in furtherance of the purpose of the communication.B. General rule of privilege. A person has a privilege to refuse to disclose and to prevent another person from disclosing a confidential communication by the person to a clergyman in his professional character as spiritual adviser.C. Who may claim the privilege. The privilege may be claimed by the person or by his legal representative. The clergyman is presumed to have authority to claim the privilege on behalf of the person or deceased person.
• 
  207

  Honest Questions About Child Abuse

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i have two honest questions for everyone here.

  i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.

  but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.

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  Richard Oliver

  Sparrowdown- My question still stands. Lets take this case in Louisiana where the law bars a member of the clergy from going to the authorities with knowledge of child abuse if it was given during a confession. The law does not say, it is up to the clergy member, it says that the clergy member is not allowed to report it to authorities. What do you want the congregation to do in a case like that.
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  207

  Honest Questions About Child Abuse

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i have two honest questions for everyone here.

  i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.

  but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.

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  Richard Oliver

  I said that there are laws on the books which makes lawsuits virtually impossible. Everyone here wants a black and white policy. Just take the US. There are 50 state jurisdiction, the District, Puerto Rico and other jurisdictions. Each has their own rules of evidence, criminal code, family code statutes and other laws that apply to child abuse.

  Sparrowdown- Explain to me in the case that I presented from Lousiana, how does a police officer or prosecutor get around the law that no evidence given to a clergy member is admissible? Apparently, you feel it is an easy solution, so please give me your easy solution.

  Again like in the state of Louisiana, among others, no matter what the clergy member wants to do, even if they have to be held back from going to the cops, they are bound by law to the confidentiality of the confession, even by the victim.

  Take for instance the case in Deleware where the state is suing the elders. The reason for the suit is not that the law doesn't exclude confessions from being confidential but the claim is that a judicial committee does not have confidential privilege because it can lead to punishment.
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  207

  Honest Questions About Child Abuse

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i have two honest questions for everyone here.

  i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.

  but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.

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  Richard Oliver

  The reason that I posted the last case was to show that current laws are not sufficient to protect children and may even lead to more harm. In that case and by the state of Louisiana the priest was bound to keep the matter confidential and not to report it to the police. That is why working through the legislature is key.
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  207

  Honest Questions About Child Abuse

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i have two honest questions for everyone here.

  i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.

  but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.

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  Richard Oliver

  I just did some research and found an intersting case out of the State of Louisiana:

  The facts of the case is that an older male parishioner of a Catholic church abused a 12 year old girl. The girl offered confession to the priest. The priest did not report the matter to the police because of Louisana State law. The parents of the girl sued the priest, the church and the dioceses. The court of appeals ruled that because the priest was not bound by mandatory reporting law and in fact was bound by the law not to report it, he and the other co-defendants could not be sued over it. And even if they could the law does not give relief for a private action. And me sayng that it was a Catholic priest I am not trying to say that Catholics are worst than JWs but that there are laws that have to be considered.

  And me sayng that it was a Catholic priest I am not trying to say that Catholics are worst than JWs but that there are laws that have to be considered.

  135 So.3d 724

  Court of Appeal of Louisiana,

  First Circuit.

  [PARENTS OF MINOR CHILD]

  v.

  George J. CHARLET, Jr., Deceased, Charlet Funeral Home, Inc., [The Priest], and the Roman Catholic Church of the Diocese of Baton Rouge. 1

  No. 2013 CW 0316.

  Oct. 21, 2013.Rehearing Denied Nov. 12, 2013.

  The court of appeals referneced the following sections of Lousiana state law.

  Louisiana Children's Code article 603 provides definitions applicable throughout the Title VI of the Code. In relevant part, it provides, as follows (with emphasis added):

  As used in this Title:

  (1) “Abuse” means any one of the following acts which seriously endanger the physical, mental, or emotional health and safety of the child:

  * * *

  (c) The involvement of the child in any sexual act with a parent or any other person, or the aiding or toleration by the parent or the caretaker of the child's sexualinvolvement with any other person or of the child's involvement in pornographic displays, or any other involvement of a child in sexual activity constituting a crime under the laws of this state.

  * * *

  *728 (15) “Mandatory reporter” is any of the following individuals....:

  * * *

  (c) “Member of the clergy” is any priest, rabbi, duly ordained clerical deacon or minister, Christian Science practitioner, or other similarly situated functionary of a religious organization, except that he is not required to report a confidential communication, as defined in Code of Evidence Article 511, from a person to a member of the clergy who, in the course of the discipline or practice of that church,**6 denomination, or organization, is authorized or accustomed to hearing confidential communications, and under the discipline or tenets of the church, denomination, or organization has a duty to keep such communications confidential. In that instance, he shall encourage that person to report the allegations to the appropriate authorities in accordance with Article 610.

  Louisiana Code of Evidence article 511, entitled communications to clergymen, which is referenced in the foregoing Children's Code definitions provision, provides:

  A. Definitions. As used in this Article:

  (1) A “clergyman” is a minister, priest, rabbi, Christian Science practitioner, or other similar functionary of a religious organization, or an individual reasonably believed so to be by the person consulting him.

  (2) A communication is “confidential” if it is made privately and not intended for further disclosure except to other persons present in furtherance of the purpose of the communication.

  B. General rule of privilege. A person has a privilege to refuse to disclose and to prevent another person from disclosing a confidential communication by the person to a clergyman in his professional character as spiritual adviser.

  C. Who may claim the privilege. The privilege may be claimed by the person or by his legal representative. The clergyman is presumed to have authority to claim the privilege on behalf of the person or deceased person.

  Louisiana Children's Code article 609, addressees mandatory, as well as permitted, reporting and provides, in pertinent part (with emphasis added):

  A. With respect to mandatory reporters:

  (1) Notwithstanding any claim of privileged communication, any mandatory reporter who has cause to believe that a child's physical or mental health or welfare is endangered as a result of abuse or neglect or that abuse or neglect was a contributing factor in a child's death shall report in accordance with Article 610.

  (2) Violation of the duties imposed upon a mandatory reporter subjects the offender to criminal prosecution authorized by R.S. 14:403(A)(1).

  Louisiana Revised Statutes 14:403, referred to in the Children's Code as the penalty provision for violations of the mandatory reporter laws provides, in pertinent part (with emphasis added):

  **7 403. Abuse of children; reports; waiver of privilege

  A. (1)(a) Any person who, under Children's Code Article 609(A), is required to report the abuse or neglect or sexual abuse of a child and knowingly and willfully fails to so report shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction may be fined not more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both.

  * * *

  *729 B. In any proceeding concerning the abuse or neglect or sexual abuse of a child or the cause of such condition, evidence may not be excluded on any ground of privilege, except in the case of communications between an attorney and his client or between a priest, rabbi, duly ordained minister or Christian Science practitioner and his communicant.

  
  

  and further down.

  In any proceeding concerning the abuse or neglect or sexual abuse of a child, ... evidence may not be excluded *730 on any ground of privilege, except in the case of communications between an attorney and his client or between a priest ... and his communicant,
  
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  207

  Honest Questions About Child Abuse

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i have two honest questions for everyone here.

  i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.

  but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.

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  Richard Oliver

  I am not whitewashing anything. I am showing how the law applies to what everyone here is complaining about. It is virtually impossible to overcome the odds of both mandatory precedent and compelling precedent under current law, at least in the US. The only way to bypass that is through the legislature.